E10: The Orator

TRANSCRIPT:

[Evy:] Oi!
[Webster:] That was good! Even I felt that...
[Evy:] Can you do it for me?
[Webster:] Did it on the mic... damn!
[Evy:] Are you transforming into.. .like the wings start coming out...
[Webster:] Shell falls off...... wrhaaaa
[Orator:] Finally free of this human form... Alright, lego...

[Evy:] Hello, and welcome to WordUp Podcast. I'm Evy
[Webster:] And I'm Webster
[Evy:] And today, we're here with The Orator.
[Orator:] Wazzuuup!
[Webster:] What an intro
[Evy:] Hello, and welcome to our WordUp podcast.
[Orator:] What's going on, How're you?
[Webster:] Very good, it's a beautiful day, in The Netherlands. I suspect it's beautiful everywhere else.
[Evy:] We're a podcast with no time and space, remember?
[Webster:] This is true, but just so everyone knows: it's a beautiful day.
[Orator:] It is a beautiful day, and I feel blessed.
[Evy:] Beautiful. Would you mind introducing yourself to the listeners who don't initially know you?
[Orator:] Wazzuuuuup. Hello man, what's going on, I'm The Orator, I'm a people's person sometimes, sometimes not. Poet all the time. Traveler, as much as time will allow. And yeah, just... I exist man, I just kind of... just exist and tell stories. Wazzuuuup.
[Webster:] You've been traveling recently, right?
[Orator:] Yes..
[Webster:] Tell us where you've been, what you've seen, what you've learned?
[Orator:] Since November last year, I've been to Jamaica, America, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Vietnam, Greece and The Netherlands.. So yeah, we're here.
[Webster:] Daaamn....
[Orator:] Yeah, it's been a good travel, it's been a good travel so far.
[Webster:] What was the purpose of your travels?
[Orator:] Oh, just to live, just to exist.
[Evy:] Beautiful.
[Orator:] It's just nice to exist in different environments, you know..
[Evy:] And you were here working on your book, and you just launched your other book.
[Orator:] Yeah, so one of the main things I got done when I was in Thailand, is I released my... Well I finished, and then released my first book, called Vernacular. I was in... I think I was in a hostel in Laos when it came out. It was a good day.
[Webster:] That's cool. What's your book about, can you tell?
[Orator:] It's a collection of poetry. So just reflections, a collection of reflections of the lives of you and I, so... Yeah, that's it, really.
[Evy:] And then now, you're working on another book, or you just finished?
[Orator:] Oh, I just finished it, so my next book is called Florilegium, which is Latin for A gathering of literary extracts, but also means A gathering of flowers. So yeah, that exists there. You can get both on www.theorator.bigcartel.com. So, listeners, feel free, feel free. Yeah, it's there, that's what I do.
[Webster:] You must be writing quite a lot then, to be releasing your second book soon?
[Orator:] No, truth be told, no I'm not writing... I mean, you go through different cycles and different modes, so now that this one is finished, it's kinda like... I'm trying to juggle the cycle of release mode, marketing mode, and now I've also gotta just finish up the technical side of getting the next book published. I wish I could just be in writing mode right now, but I'm just wearing too many hats...
[Evy:] Busy, huh? Because you also, I think, you did release, a while back, the musical album? Spoken work poetry?
[Orator:] Yeah, I've got three albums. Vernacular, album number one, which is a collection of snippets from the book. That's available on Spotify, Apple music, Google Play, all them things there. After that we've got Florilegium Volume One, and Florilegium Volune Two. Both of those exist online, you can do your thing, go get them. And you can purchase them on my website as well, in hard copy form. So Vernacular I think there's a handful of cd's left, Florilegium Volume One there's a handful of cd's and Florilegium Vloume Two was released on tape, so yeah..
[Webster:] On tape, old school.
[Orator:] Yeah man, we nod to the old school, so... Yeah boom, that's the albums.
[Evy:] Alright, cool. What inspires you?
[Orator:] Life, yeah, just life, man. There's really no science to it for me, you know, just experience, man... Just experience. Experience is one of the greatest teachers for me, so for me, I just soak it up. That's why I try and see as many things as I can, that's why I travel as many places as I can go. Because, yeah, take it all in, and I could see the most normal person walking down the road and flip that into some kind of poem that will be heard by thousands of people, so... yeah that's cool.
[Webster:] When did you first realize that you had a knack for that sort of thing?
[Orator:] Age 11.
[Webster:] Eleven?
[Orator:] Age 11.
[Webster:] Specific.
[Evy:] What happened?
[Orator:] So, I was... I went to an all boys school, right? Like, I didn't really take no chat from nobody, so I got in plenty of fights with kids older than me. But ain't no problem, you know what I mean? Back in those days, you could just have a swing out and it would just be that, you know what I mean? See each other the next day and it's fine. But it was one kid, Shaun, who I probably couldn't beat up. He was like the strongest kid in his year. He was year 8, I was year 7. And I was just like: Bruh, he's gonna be a tough one. So I was like... But I knew he rapped, so I was like: come, let's battle innit? 'Cause I know, like, by then, grime was just taking, grime didn't even have a name at that point, really. But the sound was everywhere, so, okay, he's got bars. So he said yeah.. Basically, I don't know, something happened, he wanted to fight me. And I was like: No, let's clash. So I had to go home, write some bars. Truth be told I just copied some bars from some cd that I got from London when I was at my dads house. And yeah, I went back, we clashed, I beat him. Obviously, the playground decides who wins, you feel me. Like, whoever gets people to make the most noise for, that's the victor. So obviously they went mad. Obviously I showed them down with lyrics. And they went mad. And then he was like: Nah, I've heard them before. I was like: No... He was like: Nah, enough, I've heard them somewhere. I was like: Nah, bro... And he was like: Come back tomorrow, I'm gonna beat you up. So I went home and wrote some lyrics and I come back and I beat him again, and then he still wanted to fight me, but he couldn't now 'cause I killed him with the lyrics. So yeah, that's... Yeah, age eleven... I was like: Nah man, if I decided to put my pen to the pad, I'm good with it.
[Webster:] That's amazing. How were you influenced by grime at the time? Was that a big part of your childhood, growing up? Or ...
[Orator:] Yeah man, I'm a grime baby. Trust me, like, that was just the sound of the time, you feel me? On the back of UK Garage, like, garage still about when I was coming up. But grime, grime was like, by the time I got into like, secondary school, and halfway through, grime was the thing. Like, grime was life, you feel me? Them oldschool pirate radio sets people used to send sets and send tunes, infrared, Bluetooth, like... Back when like, you'd wait for like a radio set to come out or you'd wait for people to come on radio because you knew that was a place to catch them. Back when people were clashing each other and you'd say a man's name on radio, and he would just come to the radio station. Like, d'you feel me, like, none of these twelve fingers like, you've got something to say? we're clashing now. And then now you're on air, going on like you were burning the guys in front of you, or you're gonna clash and back it, or not. And if you do, it makes for some legendary moments, you feel me? So yeah, it Ghetts versus Bashy I was playing that earlier today, man, legendary moment. Where's Carlos, where's Carlos? Oh my nan knows exactly what that means "Where's Carlos?" So yeah... Grime, life, grime is life, trust me. I'm a hip-hop head, but I'm a grime baby, man.
[Evy:] Intense. I always ask people who perform on stages, and other places, what's the weirdest thing that happened to you, while performing?
[Orator:] That's a good question. I don't know.
[Evy:] Or like memorable, not necessarily weird..
[Orator:] I don't know, you know... I don't know, I've performed in some very strange places. So you know, just the environment was a bit mad, but, I don't even know... You know when I'm on stage, I just summon my own world, I don't even know what's going on beyond, like, four feet in front of me. You know what I mean, I'm in my head.
[Evy:] In your zone
[Orator:] yeah, honestly. So whatever is happening outside, you better just shut up and do it quietly, like... But other than that... No, honestly, I'm just... It's been... Nothing matters, no gunshots, no riots, no...
[Webster:] Thank god
[Orator:] nothing like that, you know what I mean? I've performed at a few protests and stuff like that, but..
[Evy:] Oh, did you?
[Orator:] Just, yo, occupy movement, it was a good time. Got a man involved with a bank of ideas, that was a good time.
[Evy:] So what are your plans for the future? You're releasing your book, that's...
[Orator:] Yeah, so Vernacular is out now, I'm going to be releasing Florilegium, at some point this year. Follow me on social media, even if I'm really just not gonna use it in the future. But follow me on social media @theorator_UK and you can get updates about that, cause I just don't even know when that's coming out. But other than that, my travels continue, so I'm in the UK by the time you hear this. And then, within a week or two I'll be flying out to Peru. So and I'm gonna be in Peru for three months.
[Webster:] Damn, what's in Peru?
[Orator:] Uhmm, friend.
[Webster:] Nice.
[Orator:] So you know, amazon, nature, people, ayahuasca, good stuff.
[Webster:] I was gonna say... I was going to ask if you were gonna partake in any enlightening activities...
[Orator:] Oh yeah, nahh, yeahh... Already, I'm going through a good journey.
[Webster:] Nice, that's cool
[Orator:] So, but I don't know what's going on. After that, I don't really have any plans in particular, but I'm just building two houses. That's my plan, man. I'm building a house in West Africa and I'm building a house in Jamaica, so.. Haven't decided how that's gonna take about, but I know we're gonna stack some pennies up and get our Babylon. See ya!
[Evy:] Nice.
[Webster:] What was the idea behind building the homes?
[Orator:] Going home. Like, Gambia was just beautiful, was my first time in Africa. I went to Gambia, and it was just beautiful, it was just absolutely beautiful. Like, it was fantastic. I was just so comfortable, and just comforting. So yeah, I went back, bought some land there, spent some time there, was like: You know what? Yeahhh, I could stay here. And Jamaica, I got a family there, that's home. So, like, Jamaica is like my home land and Gambia is like the Motherland, so.. Yeah, I wanna be able to just be comfortable in both. And, basically, I just need somewhere that I can walk around naked, do you feel me? I'm good in both places. I can fully go, I don't have to build a house at all. But I need to be able to have my own set of keys, so I can just, you know what I mean? Just wake up, feel free, go water my plants, and.. You know what I mean? Grow my vegetables, and...
[Webster:] Living the free life.
[Orator:] Yeahh... You should write poetry.
[Evy:] Yeahh..
[Orator:] Just write books with a view in the morning.
[Evy:] Yeah that's beautiful of course
[Orator:] Do you feel me? So, yeah, once I've done that, I don't know.
[Webster:] I was gonna say: Do you feel a sudden sense of freedom when like... I'm from Zimbabwe, my parents still live there, and when I go home, it's like super super chill. Super chill, it's like, you know, you're home, everything washes away, stress is like... I don't need my phone, whaaahh...
[Orator:] That's such a western concept, like, I feel liberated here, what's going on? I haven't even done anything different.
[Webster:] And there's also the added benefit of sunlight, and, you know, all that good stuff, so.
[Orator:] Oh god, man, and just being able to pick breakfast of the tree.
[Webster:] Yeah, that's good too.
[Evy:] Inspiring. I'm so jealous already, like: when shall I see this?
[Orator:] Oh yeah, that's the future, I don't know at what point that future will become past, but we'll see. Working on it, I'm working on it.
[Evy:] And I also wanted to ask you, because all your albums and book names are quite complex words for a non native speaker. How do you come up with that?
[Orator:] My project titles are just really cool words. I think the most appropriate or most apt, but they're not common words. I know even within the UK, they're not words you're gonna come across all the time.
[Evy:] But do you sit, like, and look for words somewhere. Do you have like a small book where you're like writing all the complicated words?
[Orator:] No, sort of.
[Webster:] Like, no sort of.
[Orator:] No, funny enough I do have a folder of words on my phone. I think there's just under 200 words on there. Every so often I come across a new word, and I'll add it.
[Webster:] That's wicked.
[Orator:] So, but yeah no, I love words. So the first project, Vernacular, it kinda means regional dialects. Like, it's similar to slang, but it's just like, in different places you use slightly different sets of words, right? Doesn't matter what country you're in, right? So, you'd refer to that as local vernacular. So, that one's called vernacular because I just talk how the hell I wanna talk. And I can use words like hiphoprthiwoudnbia yada yada yada. But, what's the point? I just wanna talk how I feel comfortable talking. Florilegium, because if you see the album cover, and the eventual book cover, there's a crest, and there's some flowers on it. and there's a pen, and a banana clip, two banana clips. And a crown. And Florilegium is gathering of flowers, the flowers on there are the regional flower for Leicester, national flower for montserrat the flower which happens to grow in Jamaica and the Gambia. So, all places that mean something to me. So yeah, that's what they mean. So they're complex, but like... Oh no, it makes sense.
[Evy:] yeah, because you have your research done, also, and you... As you're telling the story right now.
[Orator:] Always. Information is key.
[Evy:] It's beautiful. I noticed that, so that's why I wanted bring you out. And also, like, you know, always wondering if I'm pronouncing it right.
[Orator:] No, you're pronunciation is good, still. Bang on.
[Evy:] So shall we ask you to read the poem?
[Webster:] Yeah, let's hear one of your poems.

Officers, we're looking for a male fitting the IC3 description
Suspect is believed to have been involved in a murder
Apprehend and contain at all costs
He's believed to be highly intelligent
Highly dangerous and a threat to society
So I warn you: proceed with caution
because this male does not inhale
toxins created by popular green plants
developed by local horticultural experts
near you
This male
does not endorse
in a supposedly high rolling
prison going over-saturated drama
better known to the common folk
as gangster rap
This male
is no longer a frequent window shopper
of JD and his choice of dress
is no longer the produce of
child slave labour
in dingy Indonesian sweatshops
exploiting children for over fifteen hours a day
Hear what I say
eye witnesses say this man in on
he has a belt
unafraid to use it
he's considered a risk to our godforsaken ignorance
any use of such concealed weapon
is an offence punishable by
up to thirty second hard struggle proceeding
any dying urges to urinate freely, so
hear what I say
Evidence leads us to believe
our chap is now using the street soft drugs OBE
yes that's O B E
further intelligence leads us to believe
that this chap is now moving in one of the two
major gangs operating throughout the UK.
BSE and BA, respectively
With possible connections to
higher ranking gang positions
such as M.S.C., P.H.D.,
praise be to G.O.D.
this is one career
F'ing criminal
PSO's
MP is probation workers
youth workers, judges and teachers
of our era
not forgetting the school heads
see the news is in
the truth is out
the stereotype is dead
placed neatly on your desk
will be a confession champion
by yours truly
images depicted in urban couture
music and movies
relayed in the peanut brains
of the stupid
have been erased
Control them back spaced
ergo the future of an entire generation saved
for I, yes I
I have no remorse
and I have no shame
in admitting to the murder of a stain
that history could not succeed
in washing away
See, I have killed the stereotype
And I dare you
to take me away

[Orator:] boom
(clapping)
[Webster:] powerful
[Orator:] yay! yeah, it's cool. Thank you
[Webster:] Nah, I loved it, man. How did you come about to writing this?
[Orator:] Just came to me one day, if I'm honest with you. To be fair, I was thinking about that while I performed it. I was like "this wasn't in the repertoire for a minute, innit?" But I remember.. I don't know if it was in it's finished form, but I remember when it first came out, it was something to do with the centenary of something of someone's death. Cause I went down to London for a bell ringing service, to mark the point of something to do with the abolishment of slavery. Something to do with that, but it was right about, a couple of years ago.
[Webster:] Damn.
[Evy:] Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
[Webster:] Seems you've got some themes of... I was getting you know, your black identity, of course. uhmm... You could... See themes of masculinity in there. uhmm... and particularly poignant, 'cause it's relevant today. With the current media coverage of, you know, knife crime and stuff like that. You know, drugs and who's perpetrating all those things. Do you see a relation?
[Orator:] Yeah yeah yeah. All you say is valid, yeah.. So, it's all in.. I think the poem is kinda pretty comprehensive, it talks on many different facets and many different things. In kinda... which kinda interconnect with many different issues that we see today, in the past, that we will see in the future. But hopefully it just kinda raises the dialogue around those things so that... Like I ain't promising to give nobody no answers, but hopefully I can spark some kind of conversation. That will help to some kind of betterment within each persons community, d'you feel me? So... that's that.
[Webster:] Appreciate it, thank you for sharing.
[Evy:] Yeah, because I think it's also about the discussion on conversation that you spark, it's not the answers, right?
[Orator:] Yeah, that's it. You ain't gotta agree with me, I really don't care if you agree with me, disagree with me, I'm not... I'm glad that we're here to have this conversation. That's it, not... whether or not people are agreeing with me, has nothing to do with the message.
You don't have to like the message, that's cool. That's perfectly fine, it's the fact that we can have this dialogue. And for me, that is the most important.
[Evy:] Yeah, exactly. To open the door.
[Orator:] That's it.
[Evy:] I'm also wondering, since you were talking about traveling, and you crossed a lot of... well, a lot of continents, and... How do you deal with the sense of belonging when traveling? And building homes in two different continents?
[Orator:] I exist, therefore I belong. That's it. I think I've got a poem in Vernacular. It's like: Free fly as the bird that flies alone / Where I choose to rest my head is where I choose to call home. So, yeah, I'm just easy
[Evy:] So I think I call it like the rule of two feet.
[Orator:] What's that?
[Evy:] It's like: You belong where you stand. Like, you are where you stand. Like...
[Orator:] I would have to agree, I would have to agree. Building the houses thing, that's long man. Cause it's such a process. It's such a process, but it's kinda like: It's been a long time coming, so I think I've been waiting to do. So I just can't wait, I can't wait, like, ask me that question when I have two houses built. And then I'll have a real problem but for right now it's just... It's a lovely hypothetical problem, but... nah
[Evy:] Yeah, but it's something to look forward to, right? And to torture yourself a little bit
[Orator:] Yeah, yeah. It's more about the torture, you know? It's really about, like, it's about the torture. Honestly, it's just the torture of like, getting it done. And then, once it's done, it's done. I'm not gonna do anything what? sit down and relax, and not think about it..? But like, I enjoy the.. the kind of mental ping-pong with juggling these ideas juggling everyday reality, juggling the reality that we create for ourselves. So, I enjoy the chase. The chase, the pursuit of the dream, so, the pursuit of happiness, if you like.
[Evy:] How did you get the dream?
[Orator:] I just woke up one day and just decided I was just gonna do what makes me happy. We all know what makes us happy. I'm just actively pursuing it. And in itself, that feels happy. So, I'm happy. But the dream itself is... Nah, neither here nor there, it's not about the dream, you know? it's about the reality. It's about the reality, the dream should just be that, should just be the spark. That's the message you got from some kind of elder or elder from the other side "What you need to be doing". It's up to you whether or not you pursue, you feel me? 'cause there's gonna be ups, there's gonna be downs. Doesn't make no difference, man, just make it a reality. Doesn't matter how you do it, does not matter. But make it a reality, and then it's done. Nothing's done 'til it's done. And when it's done, all is good.
[Webster:] Something else.
[Orator:] Yeah, that's it, that's great, it's good fun.
[Webster:] It's about the process, always, right? You learn much more from trying to pursue that thing then you do when you get to it.
[Orator:] Exactly
[Webster:] When you get to it, you're like "Yeah, whatever, I got it now, but like: What's next?"
[Orator:] Yes.
[Webster:] How can I embark on another journey, you know?
[Orator:] Exactly. And this is, I'm at that point right now, actually... Where I know what I wanna do next, I just have to decide how I'm gonna do it. So, I know I've got the next three or four months to plan the next two years. Within those two years, I'll be elsewhere, so... But then it doesn't make a difference. Cause I'll be elsewhere, but then I'll be like in the same position, thinking "Okay, so what am I doing now?" Now I'm hunching, now I wanna be elsewhere again, like... Tour the world, or you know, just I don't know... Release more books, more music, get one of these publishing companies to pay me my rights, pay me my dues. And allow me to travel with more comfort. You know what I mean?
[Evy:] Yeah, first class all the way.
[Orator:] First class? Haha, friends, they got us a jet. We're coming over to get you, bruh, we're off to New York.
[Evy:] Okay then
[Orator:] Oh, this and that, there should be no limits, man, listen. As far as... Like for too long. people have just seen like, the arts as something that we as artists, should be saying thank you for. Maybe you noticed that most artists like you know, say a speech you know... "Thank you" What the hell are YOU thanking everybody for?
[Orator and Webster:] They should be thanking you.
[Orator:] Like, you know what I mean, like... Let's get this balance back. We need some balance because... Us humble artists still have bills, so... You know what I mean?
[Evy:] Fair enough.
[Orator:] And if it was up to the rest of the world, we'd be performing for exposure forever. So we take three jumbo jets, and if you haven't three, we'll take the one.
[Evy:] Fair enough.
[Webster:] Yeah, I love that saying, when you're starting out, and people go like "oh yeah yeah we need to do some work, do this, do that.." And you're like "Oh, cool, cool, cool, how much? I'll send notes" "It's good for your experience and for your exposure..." And then they drop it like that. And because you're new, you're like "okay.."
[Orator:] Oh yeah trust me, I think the sooner people get out of that, the better. And I think that.. That's why a lot of... Can I swear?
[Evy:] Sure
[Orator:] That's why a lot of sh*t artists, right? Like... No, cuz they're not rubbish, there's a lot of shit artists, do so well, because they realize that they just care about money. So, but when you have that kind of desire for money, you kinda have no... What's the word? Not integrity, but you... You have no problem peddling sh*t. D'you know what I mean? Because you just wanna make money. D'you know what I mean? Which makes things easier, yes. But us artists that are like "We care about our craft", we will do something to support some cause and we will... You know what I mean? Because we just wanna share our craft. But the person that's in it just to be like "Nah, I just need to get payed" Like, they accelerate, their careers go a lot further a lot faster. And they get payed the stupid money. That's the point, like, they ask for it and they get it. like: WTF? Well done! Let me try that from now on" Like, try saying something, but also be like "No, like as an artist we demand our worth? No, forget it" It's not like there's not money in the arts. I think in the UK alone, the creative economy is worth like ₤80 or ₤90 billion, a year.
[Webster:] That's a lot, that's a lot of funding.
[Orator:] So, yeah, I'm coming from 0.002% and no-one is telling me otherwise. Of ₤90 billion, I'm what? Yeah man, that's it.
[Evy:] What's the worst thing that can happen when you ask, right? You can just get "No" and then you move on.
[Orator:] Yeah, worst is just be the same, still writing poetry and still putting books out and still putting albums out. It doesn't make a difference to me, but hopefully the generations that come after me, it will make a difference for.
[Webster:] Yeah I think a large part of that, is how we get educated. Like if you're working in a creative space, it's all about: hone your craft, hone your craft, make your work better, and do all this and do all that. But they're not teaching you about economics, about paying your bills, about, you know... Mortgage, whatever. Charging the appropriate rate, for what you're worth.
[Orator:] Your service
[Webster:] Yeah, for your time, no-one actually tells you that. And so, I'm always in a process of like "How much am I worth? How much should I be charging?" you know?
[Orator:] And it's crazy.
[Evy:] Especially with poetry, right? If it's something that's not tangible in a way...
[Orator:] No, not even that, 'cuz people peddle ideas everyday. It's just more about... What are you willing... What are you comfortable asking for? Because we know, like, I got a commission once, right, and I got a grand for writing a poem, right? Lovely, it's great, right? But I didn't feel right about it, because I got bills, right? But in the same breath, so...in the next breath, we have
[Orator:] "I just do this" Do you feel me? Like, someone is giving a bunch of stuff I've been doing every day, better part of fifteen years. Like, so it almost feels... It's not normal, but why shouldn't it be? Do you feel me? So like, if you ask for it... I know artists that... I won't even get into the politics of it, right? But there's other poets, not even... They're... I won't call them poets, they can be spoken word artists. There's other spoken word artists out there, with quite a following and a name on the internet thing. But not really got that much respect for his payers, right? Got booked for a gig, in my city, come down to lend some story about how this poem allowed him to have breakfast with Will Smith, yada yada yada. And Leicester is great, because Leicester just doesn't give a f*ck about nothing. Alright? So he did his thing, and he performed, and it was an okay performance, he had his friend playing keys... It was nothing special, right? It was just light literary, yeah.. I made sure that I went on just before him. I tore the house down, I did my thing, I made sure I came out shooting, firing from the hip. Cool, I know he got paid almost ₤1000 to be there. And I, I think I got offered like ₤50. And I was just like: We're gonna have to wheel and come again. But like, but it showed me though: my set was three times as good as his. Alright? And he's getting paid a grand, all in. So therefore I must be able to ask for the same money. But because it's not normal, you don't do it. Do you feel me? We just get accustomed to, just you know, just covering expenses and blahblahbah. Which is cool, because 80% of the time, that's how it's gonna go, 'cuz you're working with your people. You're working with other people who wanna build, you're working with... But when you are working with organizations that have budgets, and you are working with multinationals, and you are working with huge organizations. Don't let them doing you on no money, if they ain't got no money, they ain't got no money, goodbye. Like, no, for real, because what? They can't, they're not gonna benefit you, it's just money. You know what I mean? It's just money. But if you're gonna take ₤200 when you're writing for British Petroleum or some other oil company, you're an idiot. Especially if they're gonna own the work. Especially if it's their work afterwards, like.... It's crazy, it's ridiculous. We've gotta start like... Nah, man, we've gotta... Like in hip-hop man, charge it to the game. We've been working too long. We've been working too long for too little. And we'll continue to do so, cause it's our choice. However, the industry... Nahh... These rules don't apply to you, this is insider stuff. Like, you're gotta pay. So, yeah man, that's the mission right now.
[Evy:] Educating people and essentially teaching them to ask and to...
[Orator:] Yeah, ask your worth. And like...
[Evy:] And know your worth. That's another thing.
[Webster:] That's the tough one, right? That's the hard bit, is like "How much are you worth?" or "How much do you think..."
[Orator:] That's what I'm saying, so if you can just, you can think your worth ₤50 for two years, but if that means two years you haven't got more than that. But if only you just came out and said: "Let's see if anyone wants to pay 350 today" D'you know what I mean? And someone says yes, you're gonna be like "Whoa.. I just need a few more of these".
[Webster:] Yeah, I'm worth 350..
[Orator:] D'you get me? and uhm they guy John Berkovich rich man, amazing poet. He said to me "Once you get your price for something, don't ever take anything less." Excuse me, and he's a poet and a creative practitioner now, I'm pretty sure that's all he's done for the past twenty years. So he said: "Once you get paid alright, don't take anything less."
[Webster:] 'cause it means you're worth that.
[Orator:] Yeah
[Evy:] And more, probably.
[Orator:] Yes. I'm like, alright, cool.. I just kinda take whatever lessons I get, pass them on. And just continue to raise the profile of poetry. I think that's important. Because with these things that pay most, is... You do get more exposure, but it's not about the exposure, it's the fact that you're working with platforms that have large audiences, and poetry has to be there. Halifax in the UK, a bank, they've had a few poets on their most recent campaign. 'Cause they kind of understand, like, you know what I mean? They just talk to everybody. You know what I mean? A guy in a suit or... If you can design an advert, but it's just gonna be speaking to a set of people... But a poet is just gonna go out there and... speak, to everybody. So yeah, just pay us our due, and let's continue to raise the profile of poetry. 'Cause it increases dialogue amongst conversations that people don't necessarily wanna have, or in mainstream media just aren't had.
[Webster:] Do you think there's a need for more people to talk?
[Orator:] Always.
[Webster:] Always?
[Orator:] Always. Reasoning is important.
[Webster:] What sort of things do you wanna talk about?
[Orator:] I'm gonna say football. I'm not a big football person, but sometimes I just enjoy talking sh*t. No, honestly, because it's like... D'you know when you're always thinking about something deep. Sometimes it's just nice to be able to talk sh*t. Like, honestly, with just some good people, you can talk about something that isn't about changing the world, or isn't about how messed up the planet is, or... you know what I mean? Because these are such day to day things, that's what's happened. Maybe it's just me as an artist being an artist, but... Like, nah, sometimes I just wanna be able to talk about, like, stuff that we don't have to carry with us. You feel me?
[Webster:] Yeah.
[Orator:] But yeah, my poetry does the talking, man. I just wanna talk about chilling, relaxing, travel, food... Food, oh my god, I could talk about food forever.
[Webster:] What's the nicest thing you ate on your travels, recently?
[Orator:] Recently? How recently? On this set of travels?
[Webster:] On this set of travels, yeah
[Orator:] Okay. I had jerked chicken at Christmas dinner. Christmas dinner was bad. yeah I was at my grandma's house man. Me and my dad made a little kitchen in the front yard. Oh yeah, was too cold. Cooked them down, did grill the goat... yeah yeah yeah man, skin it, got me cooked down two gold swirls. And a jerked chicken, yeah man, from scratch. Listen man, if you're in London, find Jackson's catering, man. Go get some jerked chicken, man, I recommend it. Waterloo, man, Millenium Park, man. You can go there Monday through Friday. They sell out by one o'clock, so you better come early.
[Webster:] Damn.
[Evy:] Wow.
[Orator:] But yeah, Christmas dinner was on point.
[Webster:] I hear you man, I hear you...

[Webster:] And that's it for this week, everybody. As usual, you can find us on www.worduppodcast.com. There you'll find our social media, you can find links to past podcasts and generally engage with us in that way. Thank you.
[Evy:] Thank you so much and see you next time. Doei!
[Webster:] We'll clean that up, right?



Transcript by Audrey van Houten