E7: Aspasia

[Webster:] The art dictates its own length...
[Aspasia:] Yes, yes!
[laughing]
[Evy:] Don't interrupt the process!
[Evy:] Hello, hello, and welcome to Word Up Podcast. I'm Evy...
[Webster:] ... and I'm Webster...
[Evy:] ...and today we are with Aspasia.
[Aspasia:] Hi!
[Webster:] Hi there!
[Evy:] How are you today?
[Aspasia:] I'm very fine, thank you, how are you guys?
[Webster:] Fantastic!
[Evy:] Great. We're really excited to have you. Could you introduce yourself to the people who don't know you?
[Aspasia:] Oh, yes. So, I'm Aspasia. I'm a Greek and German spoken word artist... Yeah. That's... I like to stay mysterious.
[Evy:] Ooh!
[Webster:] Oh, yeah!
[Evy:] We'll try to uncover some mystery!
[Webster:] Yeah, super vague, let's go with it.
[laughing]
[Webster:] So, how did you get started with spoken word?
[Aspasia:] Um, how do you mean? Why or when?
[Webster:] How, why, when, what...
[Aspasia:] How, why, when...
[Webster:] All of it!
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Aha, ok. So, I was writing stories for myself for a very long while and then, when I decided it's time to share, I realized ... who... they are long, people are going to look at me like for 15 minutes... I don't like that. So, I kind of changed to poetry, and I found poetry was more, like... it brings the message with few words and more emotions. Straight to the point. That's why I decided to continue like that, yes.
[Evy:] Uh-huh. And where do you find your inspiration?
[Aspasia:] In daily life, I guess, like every artist.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Just, like, the things that happen and that touch the heart, they just need to...
[Evy:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] Be presented in a poetic form.
[Evy:] Nice.
[Aspasia:] Uh-huh.
[Webster:] So did you grow up in Greece or Germany, or?
[Aspasia:] Um, in both countries, actually.
[Webster:] Oh, that's cool.
[Aspasia:] But then, school education I got in Germany, cause it's... like... my parents fancy Germany when it comes to education.
[Webster:] Ah, nice. So, you've lived in different places. Has that influenced your poetry in any way?
[Aspasia:] Um, I think it made me more open-minded. Because the cultures are quite different...
[Webster:] Right
[Aspasia:] So, it's easier for me to switch perspective... even if it comes to, like, other matters.
[Webster:] Yeah. Yeah, totally.
[Aspasia:] But, I mean, it must be the same for you guys, right? You both live in a country where you... it's not your origin... and I feel like that's such a blessing... It's also a curse sometimes...
[Evy:] Yeah... [laughing]
[Aspasia:] So... beautiful to be able to, like, I don't know...
[Webster:] Yeah...
[Evy:] It gives you better perspective, right?
[Aspasia:] Yes, yes.
[Webster:] Yeah, I think, generally, people that I know, who are like "internationals" - quote, unquote - tend to be more open-minded about stuff, open to new experiences, meeting different people, and that kind of shapes the way you engage and, you know, work, and a lot of stuff like that.
[Aspasia:] Yeah, it's true.
[Webster:] So, I imagine, for your poetry it's quite, you know, it's mind-expanding, cause you've seen much of the world, and you've seen how people speak in different languages... I'm assuming you're trilingual?
[Aspasia:] Yeah, I speak also Spanish, because I've lived in Central America for three years...
[Webster:] Oh, wow!
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] But not so good anymore... but yeah.
[Webster:] That's awesome!
[laughing]
[Evy:] So, you also traveled a lot. And you just came from Guatemala?
[Aspasia:] Yeah, I did. Yes, yes, yes. I came from Guatemala.
[Evy:] How was it?
[Aspasia:] It was beautiful, very inspiring. It was... I stayed at a lake, um, that was surrounded by volcanoes...
[Evy:] Oh wow, yeah, you sent me pictures...
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Oh did I? Yes, yes. Oh!
[Evy:] So beautiful.
[Aspasia:] If it wouldn't be for this one I... wouldn't have left.
[laughing]
[Webster:] Well, sorry!
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Damn you!
[Evy:] But, this is not your first time in Amsterdam, right?
[Aspasia:] No, no, no. I like Amsterdam as an artistic city, like, I feel here is like people are very close to their hearts when it comes to arts. In Germany, I face more like... You know what I mean, when I speak about mind and heart?
[Webster:] Uh-huh.
[Aspasia:] And I feel here people are more authentic, and in other places it's more like they want to perform... here it's more... people want to speak and want their words to be received and that's what I like here, especially in Amsterdam. It's very... very nurturing, actually.
[Evy:] Wow.
[Aspasia:] Yeah.
[Evy:] And how long are you staying?
[Aspasia:] Tomorrow I leave. My boyfriend has to work so it's like... Need to bring him home...
[laughing]
[Webster:] Did you always perform in English, or German, Spanish... Greek? How...
[Aspasia:] Um, I started in German for some... I don't know, like, just, it was the easiest to me, because that's the language we talk in my home.
[Webster:] Right.
[Aspasia:] But, somehow, I realized there is something in poetry that makes people understand even if it's in a different language. But then having the emotion and understanding what the person is saying is actually more powerful, so then I switched to English, yes.
[Webster:] Ah, ok. So, you find that... do you find that people receive it differently in different languages?
[Aspasia:] Yes.
[Webster:] Right.
[Aspasia:] What would you say? What are... you're also doing poetry, or?
[Webster:] I'm... no, no, nonono. I'm a film-maker. [laughing]
[Aspasia:] Oh.
[Evy:] And your friendly host of the podcast...
[Aspasia:] And a friendly host!
[laughing]
[Webster:] Friendly host, yeah, I just stick to viewing... but I'm bilingual and like... in... I'm from Zimbabwe and we speak Shona in Zimbabwe and I... well I noticed from a young age, like, things you say, for example, in Shona, have much more like gravity, they mean a lot more than in, like, English. So, for example, if you, like, swear to someone in English it's like, "oh, F you!"...
[Evy:] Yeah.
[laughing]
[Webster:] It's like, "nah, fuck you man", "yeah, whatever". But in Shona, if you, like, swear at someone, it's like the worst thing, you know. So, I was just wondering how that affects your poetry, because, you know, you know so many languages and obviously you understand how they're interpreted in different languages.
[Aspasia:] That's... oh... that's actually true, but, well, I realize, like, I don't know how it is for you, but for example in my dreams, like, I switch languages. So, when I think, I think in a different language, like even when I was living in Central America, like, my brain worked in German, you know what I mean?
[Webster:] Wow. Yeah.
[Aspasia:] Um, but now when it comes to poetry, like, my natural language is somehow English, I don't know, like, it switched. But, like, the thinking or the dreaming, they just stay the same. I don't know how it is for you, like your dreams, your thinking? How does it work?
[Webster:] That's interesting. When I was a child, actually, I remember when I was quite young when I started to change, but I used to think in my mind in Shona...
[Aspasia:] But where did you grow up, sorry to interrupt...
[Webster:] In Zimbabwe, till the age of twelve, and then I went to England until I was twenty-five, and then here.
[Aspasia:] Ok, ok.
[Webster:] So...
[laughing]
[Webster:] Yeah, I remember there was a switch, there was a moment where I started thinking in English and I was like, "well, this is weird". Not used to thinking in English. And I made the switch from Shona to English and that was just like... "pfff... what?" Like, now I'm self-aware of the language that I'm speaking in my mind... but, yeah, it can be difficult, I think, if you know multiple languages, cause you have to decide... this is how I'm thinking about stuff.
[Aspasia:] Yes...
[Webster:] And it changes the way you think, I think. When I'm thinking in another language.
[Evy:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] Yes, that's true. But how is it for you, because you're also like with your... where did you grow up? Here? No.
[Evy:] Lithuania. [laughing]
[Aspasia:] So, how is it for you? How do you...
[Evy:] I think in the language I speak.
[Aspasia:] Really?
[Evy:] I mean, at the moment.
[Webster:] So you think in English.
[Evy:] Yeah, at the moment.
[Webster:] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] But when you sit with yourself and you just think about life and what you do next?
[Evy:] It depends on the context, so, like if I sit by myself, what am I doing? And in which language am I doing...
[Aspasia:] You're just hanging out in your bed and you're like, what am I going to eat later?
[Evy:] Oh, it depends.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Really, oh, ok. Interesting. Like, you see? Like... for me it's just like my brain is so rigid, it's like, ok, this is in German and this is in Greek and this is in Spanish... poetry's in English.
[laughing]
[Evy:] Yeah, but I think, like, also, like if I'm traveling, I also try to learn new words from the places where I go. So, like, in Greek [laughing]... things like... I've learned a lot of things in Greek, for example.
[Aspasia:] Oh, right, you lived in Greece?
[Evy:] No, I worked in Greece.
[Aspasia:] Ah, you worked in Greece. Yes, yes, yes.
[laughing]
[Evy:] So, for me it's kind of like, ok, and then I can switch it up and it's a mess in my head, it's really... [laughing] It's not a very tidy place.
[laughing]
[Webster:] Yeah, perhaps think in one language. It makes things easier...
[Evy:] Tidier.
[Webster:] Tidier, yeah, yeah, yeah!
[Evy:] Organized.
[Webster:] Yeah.
[Evy:] But language and... I just found out... what's the oldest words or what are the oldest words. Like if you would meet someone from 600 years ago, what would be the word that you could use that they would understand?
[Aspasia:] [makes an unintelligible sound]
[Evy:] ... were mama and papa.
[Aspasia:] Ooh!
[Webster:] Of course, yeah!
[Evy:] In the beginning, they thought, like, objects, like "apple" and things and now... but then they're like, no...
[Aspasia:] I thought like sounds or something, I don't know.
[Evy:] Well, I mean, it's the Pan European... Pan Indo-European language.
[Webster:] Hm. Guess that's the one thing everybody has in common, right?
[Evy:] Mama and papa, right!
[Webster:] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!
[laughing]
[Webster:] Or "ouch". "Ouchie".
[laughing]
[Webster:] So is there a common theme in your poetry that you like to express?
[Aspasia:] Um, well, I would say, like, mostly I just talk about emotion, like in general, I try to figure out what I'm writing about, what is the feeling behind it, and then I try to compress everything. Yeah, so I would say emotions are my... especially sad and angry emotions, I don't know why.
[Webster:] Oh, cool.
[Aspasia:] Like, that's what I... that's what I like to express.
[Webster:] That's interesting, cause you don't come across as, like, a super emotional, like, serious, serious person, you come across quite like bright ... so how... is that just inside stuff that you need to get out of your head, or...
[Aspasia:] Sometimes I feel it's the emotions in general we repress and they're human and then I like to talk and chat to people and then I often realize, oh, there is some common sadness inside of us, I don't know, but even me, like... it's not something... I mean if you meet me and you're like, "Hi, how are you?" and I go like "I'm so saaad!", it will disturb you, you don't... like... most people don't know how... they cannot just go like... "Oh, ok, why are you sad?" they are just like "Oh, I feel uncomfortable, I wanna go away!"
[Evy:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] ...because that's... like it's small talk you are supposed to say...
[Webster:] Yeaaah, yeah, yeah!
[Aspasia:] "Oh, I'm so good today!"
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Even if you are not and that is... I don't know... I feel sometimes that's what... I catch and then I go home, and it still bothers me, and I'm like, ok, now it needs to get out. And, also, I don't speak up so much for myself...
[Webster:] Right.
[Aspasia:] So then in my poetry like, if someone I know... I'm like "Aaaargh..." [laughing] "Ghhh I hate you!" I don't know, somehow, that's my... I don't know.
[Webster:] Release...
[Evy:] So poetry's like... yeah, like a release and therapy for you?
[Aspasia:] Yes, yes, somehow, isn't it for all of us, our art is like a healing facility for the soul?
[Evy:] Of course, of course.
[Aspasia:] Yeah.
[Evy:] And I think it's interesting what you mentioned about sadness, that it's.. it is underlying in many people I think, in general, but then it's all so, so awkward to talk about it, cause it's...
[Aspasia:] Yeah!
[Webster:] Yeah, you're supposed to say, "I'm fine", even though it's like, my day is going horribly...
[Evy:] Yes!
[Webster:] And I'm not going to say that, cause I might have to talk about it...
[Aspasia:] Yes! And maybe you just want to say, "you know what, today I'm feeling like shit".
[Webster:] Yeah!
[Aspasia:] And that's fine, I don't even want someone to pet my... I just wanna say that I'm not good and that's fine.
[Evy:] Embrace the shit!
[Aspasia:] Yes! I was actually... the reason I was thinking about happiness... because everyone's ... and, also for me, like, what do I... ah, I wanna be happy! And then I wonder, what is true happiness, actually? Isn't it, like, allowing all the feelings to be there, so if I'm sad, I'm sad and I respect the sadness somehow? But, yeah, then it's easier said than done, right? Let's just walk around and be sad but, like, it's so hard, no one likes it.
[Webster:] And I guess you need to have a balance of both... both emotions cause otherwise you wouldn't be able to appreciate that you are happy, if you didn't experience the really horrible stuff, right?
[Aspasia:] It's so true, yes!
[Webster:] Yeah!
[Evy:] And I don't know, I always think that being purposeful is better than being always happy.
[Aspasia:] But I don't understand, how do you mean, being purposeful?
[Evy:] Purposeful, like, having a purpose? Like, you know, either it's connecting with people or helping people, or like doing what you feel there is purpose in it... because it doesn't have to... Like it doesn't have the weight of, like, "You have to be happy!" You know? it doesn't have that aspect of like forced happiness.
[Webster:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] Oh, that's so true. So, it means, like, you... let's say that you know where you are aiming at... And no matter what emotionally...
[Evy:] Yeah, if you know what's your calling, you know, like, what's inside you.
[Webster:] Your values, I guess.
[Evy:] Yeah. Cause, you know, some people find purpose in children, or the other people in teaching or I don't know. It can be anything.
[Aspasia:] Yeah.
[sound is heard]
[Evy:] Facebook?
[laughing]
[Webster:] DJ making noise.
[Evy:] You are a ghost!
[laughing]
[Evy:] There goes our deep conversation...
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Yes!
[Evy:] It's all gone, you couldn't handle the pressure...
[Webster:] Just had to break it off with a little song... Sorry, guys, too soon...
[Evy:] To get into more happy things... It's so good today. But on that note, I think we would be very curious to hear your poem?
[Aspasia:] poem?
[Evy:] Yeah, so let's...
[Aspasia:] Ok, let's do a poem.

This is not fair!
It's really not!
Why do I get to think about that shit and you not?
Or do you?
Tell me!
Tell me if you see this misery!
Cause if you see it too, it would mean it's true,
It's not just in my head,
I'm not mad.
Of course, it would still be sad, but
At least we could talk.
Not like on a normal day, but I feel that you hear me,
But you don't truly listen to what I say.
Today, please listen completely.
So, now, what did I choose to say?
Can you repeat?
Please?
See?
You never truly listen to me!
So, I talk, and I talk, add some things, leave others away
Just to make what I say more interesting,
For you or for me,
I don't even know.
But today, today you have to tell me,
Tell me what you see when you look at me!
Is it love?
Is it friendship?
Is it anything more than attraction?
Cause, to me, it feels like we want to meet
But we keep running into different directions
Just to smile, wave at each other from afar.
Yet hiding our truth in the distance.
But not today...
No, today you have to tell me,
Tell me what you see and tell me if you see your own misery.
Cause I'm water thrown into your fire...
Of course, I will tame your flame.
What else do you expect?
But I will burn, too, don't worry.
Only being able to survive your heat,
By turning into us...
But holding you in my arms while you sleep,
My heart melts,
Relentlessly revealing my truth for you to see...
Oh, wait! Don't look at me!
Cause maybe, yeah, maybe this is just in my head...
I'm mad, and this misery, your misery, it's just part of my reality...
And maybe, yeah, maybe this is something I don't want to see...
So no, please don't tell me.

[Aspasia:] Thank you.
[Webster:] Wonderful!
[Evy:] Oh!
[laughing, clapping]
[Aspasia:] That's my newest one, actually, so it was a little bit...
[Evy:] Yeah, but thank you for sharing!
[Webster:] Yeah, thank you very much for sharing!
[Aspasia:] Thank you for allowing me to share, for receiving my words.
[Webster:] There's an element of... sort of... performance in your poetry which I've also seen when I've seen you on stage. Is that something you've always done or is that something you've developed? I feel like, for each poem you have like a character who's speaking out. Is that...?
[Aspasia:] Ooh, that's how you perceive it? Really?
[Webster:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] Interesting. It's more like... I allow my heart to commit and then it just... it's... and, and, of course, like... I have, like, there's a deep Greek attitude inside of me, that loves drama, and, like, it amplifies everything...
[Webster:] Right.
[Aspasia:] Yeah, but mostly it's like... I just commit to my words.
[Webster:] No, I like it.
[Aspasia:] That's how it flows out...
[Webster:] Yeah, it's quite strong. Because you get really sucked in, I'm like, I believe it cause I can see it, I can see the emotions on your face as you're speaking, as well, so it's cool.
[Aspasia:] Um, but I feel like that's actually the art I like, if I see the people are, they're authentic, they just not speak their words, they commit to their words, for me that touches my heart.
[Webster:] Yeah, it's like, you're invested in what you're saying and not just... you know, I wrote some lovely pretty words, and then I'm gonna share the words with you, it's like I'm sharing an actual story with you.
[Aspasia:] Yeah!
[Evy:] There is motion in the emotion...
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Thank you, it's beautifully said!
[Evy:] I think because, like, you really act and enact what you're saying... so that's the motion...
[Aspasia:] Yeah, I live up to the emotion I'm... also, like, if people have arguments with me, it's like... I just...
[Evy:] So this is the Greek part in you, definitely.
[Aspasia:] Like, if I argue, it gets very intense. Actually, I needed to learn that, when I was moving more with my German friends, because in Greece you can sit on a table, like, and we... there's, like, a real discussion culture, so we can sit here and we can swing at each other and we cannot agree and afterwards we just go and eat and it's like...
[Evy:] Yeah.
[Aspasia:] So, no one wants to convince the other, there's no like, I don't want to enforce myself on you, but we enjoy, like... [ makes grunting sound] ...the fight. I love it!
[laughing]
[Webster:] Yeah!
[Aspasia:] Like, that's what I'm sometimes missing in Germany... I'm like, I want to fight with someone!
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] About something!
[Evy:] Yeah, because it doesn't have to be, like, you change each other, it's just the expression...
[Aspasia:] Yes!
[Evy:] ...and then you move on, and you're like, "oh, ok then". [laughing]
[Aspasia:] Yeah, it's like, ok, now I know how you feel, and you know what I feel, and, let's...
[Evy:] Yeah, it doesn't change our relationship it's just...
[Aspasia:] Yes!
[Evy:] ... gives a little bit more colour, maybe, or aspect of... ok it's like this is something... let's scream about this!
[Aspasia:] And for me, it's always surprising when I meet people and then I see like... I see when I try to convince someone of my world view that I'm like, oh, ok, that's like... because if I can be cool and I can... how can I say... for me it's a sign of, oh, ok, and that that topic is integrated... it's within me, like, I'm sure about what I'm saying, and if you don't agree, it's ok for me. But if I realize, now I want to try to convince you, then I see, like, oh, ok, no, I need to think about my own world view, because it's not integrated, so I need to... you know, I need your support so I feel good. That's always... It's... ok, now I need to stop arguing, I need to sit and think about what I'm doing.
[Evy:] Yeah, because it's also, like, how we approach each other's boundaries. Right? That's...
[Webster:] Yeah, like, that's how I made some of my friends at school, when I first started going to school. It's like, you argue with someone, or you, like, get into a fight with them, and then you have respect for each other.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Yeah, right?
[Webster:] It's like, now you're like friends. Ok, and now I know the boundaries. I see who you are, you see who I am. It's cool. And I feel like, yeah, that's happened so many times in my life, when I got into like a serious argument or fight with someone and then it's like, "oh, ok, now we're cool". Because, before, it's like a push and pull, you don't know where you stand, it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like a very intricate puzzle. Then you smash, it's like, "phew, cool, now I know, we're cool".
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] But I feel it's easier for kids, I don't know, the older I get the more, like, rich things get and it's like... oh!
[Evy:] Yeah, it's also, it has more implications, also, right? Because people keep the grudge longer.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Yeah, well that's... yes. They remember longer... Kids have such interesting lives... so they're just like, "yeah ok that was yesterday, man, today is today".
[Evy:] Yeah, like, it's a new day, let's sort this out for another fight.
[Aspasia:] And then you come and you've... I don't know... new shoes or a new thing to play... they're like "oh, yesterday I hated you, today you have like this toy I... Let's be friends again!"
[laughing]
[Webster:] Let's be friends!
[Aspasia:] Yes, what's the problem?
[Evy:] This is intense!
[Webster:] Yeah, it's childhood...
[Evy:] Yeah, well I think that's why we should all keep the child within us...
[Webster:] Oh yes!
[Evy:] I mean I know my child needs a nanny, but...
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] An inner nanny for the inner child... I feel that's master class. Master, master class.
[Evy:] Inner nanny for inner child...
[Webster:] Should be a book, that's a great title.
[laughing]
[Evy:] Mary Poppins. I think that already exists. Damn it.
[laughing]
[Webster:] So, what are you looking forward to? Anything coming out that you're particularly excited about?
[Aspasia:] Oh, yes! I found like another... I want to make a project like a spoken word theatre project. I just don't know... Like the idea just came to me like two weeks ago when I was in Guatemala, and I would like to be, like, a self-employed artist, so what can I do?... And then, I don't know, I had this idea of creating a project of, I don't know, having different strong artists speaking about a topic, let's say, like love, from different, like, cultural or even gender perspectives. So, there's, like, the female, maybe like, women speaking about love, men speaking about love, or also... but... I'm not sure, like this... it's two or three weeks old but... that is something I would like to establish, like as a, let's say, as a spoken word poetry theatre tour in Europe, so... Because somehow, I feel like, though we are in Europe or we are in the world, there's still a lot of misunderstanding or like... you know what I mean? Like talking... I mean, coming from Zimbabwe, your world views may be completely different, your ideas on love, your ideas on... so, now you come in this culture you're just like... what... what is happening here? As I talk to more and more people, I'm like, it's so interesting how people... Actually, I'm especially interested in love because that's like... I'm struggling with love all the time so I'm like, oh, I would love to see what people have to express about different stages of love, from the beginning to I don't know... you know, like... and what is love to them? What is... So, that is something I would like to establish. And I already started to check for funding, because the European Union is funding such cultural projects, and now I need to find partners and also the actors, but I think, you know, that everything will come somehow and find its way. So, now the idea is born and, like you with the blueberries, now I manifest the people coming into my life, so we can create something together and from there I don't know, like, start into different... Because, I mean, it starts with love, but we can go through all the emotions and I feel it's more... at least for my heart. I see, like... we can talk about feminism and sexism and racism and all the things but, after all, I don't know, for me those core emotions are... that's... I feel if they are resolved, many problems just fade. I don't know. Maybe it's just my romantic heart saying...
[Evy:] Your theatre of love.
[laughing]
[Aspasia:] Oooh, yes. I... that's how I would call it.
[Webster:] Great name!
[Aspasia:] Theatre of love! Oooh, yeah.
[Evy:] And you can use your Greek words, that's also nice...
[Aspasia:] Sorry, what...?
[Evy:] "Agapi mou"? No, it's not that...
[Aspasia:] Oh, "agapi mou..."
[laughing]
[Webster:] So, for our audience listening, where can they find you online?
[Aspasia:] Oh. They can find me on Facebook, looking for Lionesspoetry. Yes.
[Webster:] Brilliant!
[Aspasia:] Thank you!
[Webster:] Well, thank you very much, Aspasia, for speaking with us.
[Aspasia:] I thank you!
[Evy:] Thank you!
[Aspasia:] I thank you for inviting me.
[Webster:] So, for our lovely audience listening, you know where to find us, at www.worduppodcast.com, where you can find our social media, you can suggest new guests and you can listen to past and present episodes, as well as fresh and up to date information on our lovely guests. See you next time!
[Evy:] Doei!
[Aspasia:] Bye-bye!




Transcript by Miruna